Mabi vs other MMORPGS

• Syliara wrote on 2015-06-17 21:35

  Quote from callback;1278837:

  I've seen 50 content streamed. Doesn't change the combat in any way. Also what kind of a game forces you to grind through suckage for that long before any fun can be had? You should absolutely be able to judge based on early impressions, especially once you get a good look at the core mechanics. XIV's core mechanics are WoW. I despise WoW combat.

  
  
  Looking at a stream doesnt show anything about the combat. It's a lot more interactive and fun when your the one actually doing the content because most end game requires you to constantly be on your feet and always aware of your surroundings. Sure it looks dull from another person's point of view but when your the one actually doing it and having to deal with mechanics while trying to maximize your dps output, or trying to keep everyone alive with massive damage being dealt to multiple people at a time, or trying to keep the attention of the boss while mitigating as much incoming damage as you can and dealing with exactly where the boss is on the map it becomes a lot more entertaining.
  
  I haven't played WoW but from what I have seen of it FFXIV seems a lot more interactive combat wise than it is. It's hard to enjoy a game when you cant get past preconceived notions that are already ingrained in you before you even play the game, I know this because I didnt like FFXIV either until I gave it a fair try and it pleasantly surprised me. Don't judge a book by its cover.
  
  

  Quote from koishi-sempai;1278863:

  I think the idea of "the game is only good at the level cap" is really annoying.

  
  
  Technically this wont be the case after Heavensward because 50 content will still be fun at level 50. Square Enix just wasnt really paying attention to the mid and early game, but it doesnt make much of a difference since it takes all of a week to get from 1-50.
  
  

  Quote from Darkboy132;1278895:

  Literally standing there, forced to take hits, is pretty damn dull.

  
  
  I dont know what the fk your talking about when you say this, this isnt really the case for FFXIV except maybe Paladin combat in certain situations.
• kaozking wrote on 2015-06-17 22:44

  Quote from Darkboy132;1278895:

  Literally standing there, forced to take hits, is pretty damn dull.

  
  
  That's..........the point of a tank.................you know something mabi doesnt have.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-06-17 22:52

  Quote from Meiji;1278902:

  Also I highly disagree with this... if all a game can offer me is its combat style and nothing much else, I'll get bored fast. (TERA)

  
  
  Tera and WoW aren't remotely close.
  
  

  
  
  • WoW - No matter what you try to do, you're required to take hits. Even if you try to run the enemy's attack motions will always register hitting you if they're in the attack motion.
    
  • Tera - It's more like Vindictus or Monster Hunter if anything. The hitboxes strike a certain area and they're avoidable.
    

  
  
  

  Quote from Syliara;1278906:

  I dont know what the fk your talking about when you say this, this isnt really the case for FFXIV except maybe Paladin combat in certain situations.

  
  
  I don't play FF, I was talking about WoW.
  
  

  Quote from kaozking;1278910:

  That's..........the point of a tank.................you know something mabi doesnt have.

  
  
  You mean even for non-tank classes, such as squishy mages?
• kaozking wrote on 2015-06-17 22:57

  Quote from Darkboy132;1278911:

  
  
  You mean even for non-tank classes, such as squishy mages?

  
  
  I don't think you seem to understand a tank takes ALL auto attack/hard hits and of course raid bosses have raid wide damage and that's the point of healers you know...........something that's meh in mabi in most things.
• Meiji wrote on 2015-06-17 23:20

  Quote from Darkboy132;1278911:

  Tera and WoW aren't remotely close.

  Yes, I suppose the sky is blue.
• Kyishi wrote on 2015-06-17 23:50
  Mabinogi
  - horrible game
  
  Other MMOs
  - usually not as horrible
• Snowie Stormflower wrote on 2015-06-17 23:57

  Quote from kaozking;1278914:

  I don't think you seem to understand a tank takes ALL auto attack/hard hits and of course raid bosses have raid wide damage and that's the point of healers you know...........something that's meh in mabi in most things.

  
  
  I think he was referring to general point and click games in which it doesn't matter whether you're a tank or not, you'll just be spamming skills and potions regardless of class. (And usually standing still)
• callback wrote on 2015-06-18 15:16

  Quote from Qnjo;1278897:

  Just for the record, you are aware that WoW isn't even close to being the first game with tab-targeting, yes?

  
  And Kleenex wasn't the first facial tissue. Does that make it any less recognizable of an example?
  
  

  Quote from Syliara;1278906:

  Looking at a stream doesnt show anything about the combat. It's a lot more interactive and fun when your the one actually doing the content because most end game requires you to constantly be on your feet and always aware of your surroundings. Sure it looks dull from another person's point of view but when your the one actually doing it and having to deal with mechanics while trying to maximize your dps output, or trying to keep everyone alive with massive damage being dealt to multiple people at a time, or trying to keep the attention of the boss while mitigating as much incoming damage as you can and dealing with exactly where the boss is on the map it becomes a lot more entertaining.

  
  
  That's exactly what I hate. Everyone with their one little job to do, reducing combat to just mathing out the most efficient patterns based around the mob's AI. When this happens do this. When that happens use this. When this happens but this is on cooldown, do this instead. Excuse me if I prefer combat to not be defined by a simple flowchart.
  
  And that's ignoring how unbearable solo content is in that kind of game. Where mob attacks are unavoidable acting as a hard health gate instead of mere guidelines that can be overcome with skill.
  
  

  Quote from kaozking;1278914:

  I don't think you seem to understand a tank takes ALL auto attack/hard hits and of course raid bosses have raid wide damage and that's the point of healers you know...........something that's meh in mabi in most things.

  
  
  Which is exactly the point. Unavoidable damage leads to boring play patterns. "holy trinity" MMOs can suck a fat one.
• Meiji wrote on 2015-06-18 16:07

  Quote from callback;1279016:

  That's exactly what I hate. Everyone with their one little job to do, reducing combat to just mathing out the most efficient patterns based around the mob's AI. When this happens do this. When that happens use this. When this happens but this is on cooldown, do this instead. Excuse me if I prefer combat to not be defined by a simple flowchart.
  
  And that's ignoring how unbearable solo content is in that kind of game. Where mob attacks are unavoidable acting as a hard health gate instead of mere guidelines that can be overcome with skill.

  See, the funny thing is, when exactly does your guidelines become a flowchart to people?
  
  You claim that combat where "everyone with their one little job just gotta follow the most efficient patterns" is boring. But what is it exactly that you do, in what game or situation, that differs your "skill" from following mere guidelines and mathing out the most efficient patterns based around the mob's AI yourself? Isn't that what you do in a boss fight?
  
  Sorry, but wouldn't it seem that you're simply following a flowchart all the same? lol
  You see, having skill is something more fundamental than that...
• Rynn wrote on 2015-06-18 16:39
  Some people can have fun with that type of combat, others don't that's all there is to it.
  
  Some people like both, and there's games who can cater to that. Aura Kingdom has the holy trinity wow-like pattern mathing system available as well as the "just fuck shit up with DPS" mabi system.
• Syliara wrote on 2015-06-18 18:13

  Quote from callback;1279016:

  And Kleenex wasn't the first facial tissue. Does that make it any less recognizable of an example?
  
  
  
  That's exactly what I hate. Everyone with their one little job to do, reducing combat to just mathing out the most efficient patterns based around the mob's AI. When this happens do this. When that happens use this. When this happens but this is on cooldown, do this instead. Excuse me if I prefer combat to not be defined by a simple flowchart.
  
  And that's ignoring how unbearable solo content is in that kind of game. Where mob attacks are unavoidable acting as a hard health gate instead of mere guidelines that can be overcome with skill.
  
  
  
  Which is exactly the point. Unavoidable damage leads to boring play patterns. "holy trinity" MMOs can suck a fat one.

  
  
  Every game has an ai that you can eventually abuse when you get enough knowledge about it, thats exactly wat PvE is.... Though I suppose mabi is one of those games where you dont need to know the ai at all as all you have to do is simply press a button and nuke the entire map at this point, I guess thats more fun than challenging content right?
  
  An mmo is meant to be played with other people isnt it? If you want to play solo or dont like an mmo because its solo content is lacking (which btw it really isnt in ffxiv) then go play an rpg or a single player or an arcade game because thats wat its meant for....
  
  I brought this up years ago in a poll and was pretty disappointed with the results but I explained exactly why mabi is as it is due to the holy trinity not being in it. Simply put, the power creep is mostly to blame due to no restrictions being placed on the "classes" of mabinogi allowing for so much diversity in both skills used and stats gained.... Without the holy trinity it creates too high of a power ceiling thats easily notable from the current status of mabinogi....
• willcaster wrote on 2015-06-18 18:30
  I dare anyone to do The Sunken Temple of Qarn Dungeon without information. No guides, no party advice, no information.
  
  Learn by urself monsters patern, skills effects and area of effects is part of exploration and learning. If you are like me, you will learn not only your job, but everyone else job.
  
  Mabi dosent have complex mechanics, is just hit hard/fast. Gir raid tried to add a party strategy but our Wm spam screwe its poor ai.
• callback wrote on 2015-06-18 19:15
  For reference: I've tried WoW and several of its clones including XIV, but got bored to death early on in all of them. My experience with "end-game" dungeon/raiding in holy trinity-style MMOs is mostly from Secret World, somewhat offset from the "default" tab-target style, but following the same overall flow. I tanked in that, which out of everyone seems to have had the most to do, between gathering ads, maintaining aggro, leading the boss around into necessary positions, managing stuns on certain attacks, and dodging boss and environmental damage with the least room available to maneuver, plus the more meta aspects of designing my skill build, equipment, and rotation to mitigate as much damage as possible, provide an appropriate buffer for the healer, and maintain enough damage to keep aggro focused. And it was boring. The quests are the one thing that carried me through that game and the only reason I hit end-game at all. I loved the atmosphere, but once the quests ran dry and the remaining content was all dungeon/raid, PVP, and otherwise locked in upcoming DLC(or free w/ subscription) issues, I just stopped. I hated doing those dungeons. They were boring. Whether easy or hard, I was doing my job perfectly enough that failures generally only came down to the healer or a DPS dying to telegraphed attacks, and leaving it a failure from there due to lack of heals or death by timed/escalating mechanics. I may as well have been throwing dice, since my part in it all was about as engaging as a clicker game. I was just going through the motions pressing buttons and waiting to see if everybody else could manage theirs.
  
  Yes, Mabi has gone downhill a good bit. Originally, tho, it was amazing. I want more MMOs to try out new more interesting combat mechanics. Last G-star shows this upcoming release year to be the year of isometric hack & slash, so we'll see if any of them can stick. Otherwise, I'm mostly looking towards Tree of Savior as my best hope for a good new MMO.
• drezzt wrote on 2015-06-19 00:16

  Quote from Syliara;1279038:

  Every game has an ai that you can eventually abuse when you get enough knowledge about it, thats exactly wat PvE is.... Though I suppose mabi is one of those games where you dont need to know the ai at all as all you have to do is simply press a button and nuke the entire map at this point, I guess thats more fun than challenging content right?
  
  An mmo is meant to be played with other people isnt it? If you want to play solo or dont like an mmo because its solo content is lacking (which btw it really isnt in ffxiv) then go play an rpg or a single player or an arcade game because thats wat its meant for....
  
  I brought this up years ago in a poll and was pretty disappointed with the results but I explained exactly why mabi is as it is due to the holy trinity not being in it. Simply put, the power creep is mostly to blame due to no restrictions being placed on the "classes" of mabinogi allowing for so much diversity in both skills used and stats gained.... Without the holy trinity it creates too high of a power ceiling thats easily notable from the current status of mabinogi....

  
  
  I agree that power creep is very obnoxious in this game, but I don't agree that it's from a lack of a holy trinity. I base this off of a game that aimed for no holy trinity from the start: guild wars 2. No holy trinity in that game, everyone aims for maximum dps. But there's no power creep- at all. None whatsoever. I think the power creep of mabinogi is more due to the developer choices of adding new skill sets so frequently, without ever revamping old content to adjust properly. A game needs to have a long term goal, and it's always seemed to me like mabinogi does not; this is evident from the director swapping and the incoherent and unrelated story lines.
  
  
  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-06-19 00:44

  Quote from willcaster;1279043:

  I dare anyone to do The Sunken Temple of Qarn Dungeon without information. No guides, no party advice, no information.

  
  
  Better than fucking [S]Dream[/S] Tutorial Team at least.
  
  Mabinogi's tutorial system is pretty outdated IIRC. They only have the battle class board and then a simple dungeon tutorial run.