Mabinogi World Wiki Discussion

• Snowie Stormflower wrote on 2016-02-01 18:23
  There are enchants that were once added but no one ever put locations for them, so I'm kinda at a loss there since it makes me wanna move them back to unimplemented until someone tells me where they're from and if they're confirmed.
  
  Maybe someone here knows? About these:
  
  Golem Hunter's (Rank 8)
  Ghoul (Rank 8)
  Avant-Garde (Rank 5)
  Colossal (Rank 5)
  Laurel Wreath (Rank 5)
  Swallow (Rank 5)
  Break (Rank 4) (Someone was talking about this today, hence my doubts)
  Vale Tudo (Rank 4)
  
  ----
  
  Also, in regards to upgrade paths for weapons, what do you guys suggest? Obviously we need to cut down on the amount of pointless possibilities, Broadsword currently has 18 different paths, for example.
• ironwoman wrote on 2016-02-01 19:04
  Most of the enchants that you listed here are enchants that were in the same position as Chorus. Not released in the game.
  
  That being said, Ghoul drops from Alban, from Hall of Rangers. There were quite noticeable number of drops too in NA. The same goes for Swallow when it comes to drops.
  
  As for upgrade paths, things to consider - 1. How much of the stat from the weapon will the player actually need? Many weapons, especially swords, don't need much higher than 15% balance for people to use. I mean, even for 0% balance swords, you dual wield them and still can get 80% balance. I still see weapons' upgrade pages with like listing 30% balance as "low" balance, when anyone who's played for a week will know 80% balance with 30% balance weapon is ridiculously easy to get.
  2. What are the weapon's characteristics that can't be seen from other weapons? This includes range, piercing, etc.
  3. Let's just get rid of all the min > max upgrades. Those are just dumb.
  
  Just under these two conditions, you can avoid badly upgraded crossbows/Dowra and unnecessary artisans.
• Kadalyn wrote on 2016-02-01 19:28
  I think the min>max paths are useful for testers but not so much general players. Maybe they could go on a separate page? Then they'd be easier to find for testers and less in the way.
  
  I'm okay with chopping out useless upgrade paths (I know someone asked if it was okay earlier??) but what stat focuses, other than balance since that's obvious do we wanna cut out? I think at least things that seem like an insignificant change in the one stat, if there are any like that, though I'm sure there's others.
  
  I dunno about those enchants specifically but I'd like to hope any enchants without locations were mentioned in patch notes posted by Nexon. Might not be true. I hope people don't add items that are only in the data files because there are tons of those never implemented (in every game)!
• Rynn wrote on 2016-02-01 19:47
  Max damage/Effective Range/Magic Attack/Casting Speed are the paths that should be featured but there are some weapon-specific exceptions where you have to consider mixing and matching.
  Examples of that are bows/crossbows/guns where effective range has more value than max damage, or for firebolt wands where the 7% casting speed has more value than the couple points of magic attack, or weapons where you want the piercing upgrade, etc.
  
  Also, as mentioned earlier, in the current stage of the game Artisan is NOT the max damage path for most weapons due to stat cap yet several weapon pages list artisan as the "highest damage" upgrade path. Excluding weapons that get "max damage" stat from artisan, Knuckles are just about the only weapons where artisan remains "highest damage" path.
  
  Honestly, it'd probably be easier to just wipe everything and put the 1~3 ideal paths for any given weapon and not look back at upgrades made with 2010 concerns in mind.
  
  It also wouldn't hurt to link to one of the item upgrade simulators or try to copy that function. The real problem here is that the upgrade system can be confusing, which is why validated upgrade paths are so very useful to begin with. Convenient access to those interactive upgrade simulators is educational and helpful for people who have needs outside of the 1~3 ideal paths.
• Kadalyn wrote on 2016-02-01 20:07
  Been a while since I've used one, is there one that more or less tells you how effective a path is?
  
  Also I think the listings of "highest damage" refer to just the damage stat on the weapon whereas you're referring final damage, right? Or are you rating DPS? Maybe there's a better word we can use than damage that might distinguish the two?
  
  I like the idea of limiting how many paths there are, to be honest. I'm not sure what the number should be, though. 3 or 4? Of course there can be less for those weapons with only one or two useful paths.
• Rydian wrote on 2016-02-01 20:10
  Enchants without locations are sometimes data dumps, but generally pulled from other regions. Sometimes it just takes a while for somebody to get a rare one from a rarely-run source (Hostage Rescue) and confirm the location for NA though (Iron sees this all the time).
  
  Speaking of which, I still don't know how to change enchant data, for example when enchants get renamed or new locations in NA I don't know how to fix it.
  
  ----------
  
  As far as upgrade paths, for example with the Broadsword all these "dex x-y" things could be removed since dex-balance and all those other related changes happened.
  
  - Low Level
  99 dex is 20 base balance, assuming rank A masteries that's 20+6+6 for holding one sword meaning 32 balance, needing 48 balance on the weapon to cap at 80.
  
  - Low Level, Dual Wielding
  99 dex is 20 base balance, assuming rank A masteries that's 20+6+6+6+6 for holding two swords meaning 44 balance, needing 36 balance on the weapon to cap at 80.
  
  - High Level
  300 dex is 33 base balance, assuming rank 1 masteries that's 33+15+15 for holding one sword meaning 63 balance, needing just 17 on the weapon to cap at 80.
  
  - High Level, Dual Wielding
  300 dex is 33 base balance, assuming rank 1 masteries that's 33+15+15+15+15 for holding two swords meaning 93 balance, can you even get -13?
  
  I'd say a high-balance entry per sword works, but just 50% at the most since the weapon masteries are easy to rank, Sword Mastery actually gives dex, and dual-wielding swords doubles the mastery bonuses anyways.
  
  ----------
  
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/User:Rydian/Main_Page_Merge
  
  Here's some arrangement and merging done. It's always annoying to try to fit various differently-proportioned boxes, but now it should scale down properly on lower resolutions, down to about 1121 wide before things get shuffled (about 160px less than the current main page).
  
  The table/page with the current best weather list needs to have a size set so it won't wrap the last entry when scaled down too small.
  
  Also the weather forecast doesn't like being aligned so that column is set to a fixed width for now, looks a little odd to me but it's functional like this. The arrows should be more opaque when not hovered over, right now it's hard to tell they exist unless you've pointed at them.
  
  The timer thing could use some table formatting for display, then it'll look ready to push barring major issues I guess.
  
  Also tossed $20 at the wiki to show I'm not completely heartless.
• Rynn wrote on 2016-02-01 20:17

  Quote from Kadalyn;1293519:

  Been a while since I've used one, is there one that more or less tells you how effective a path is?

  
  
  Effectiveness is subjective, but this simulator shows you the changes on the weapon itself interactively and only allows you to perform upgrades in the correct order:
  
  https://mabi.sigkill.kr/itemsimulator/?lang=en
  
  It's pretty easy to select options and arrive at a finished weapon even without knowing anything about how the upgrade system works.
  
  As for what I meant, I referred to the actual damage provided to the player (since a weapon is just an item unless it is equipped). If I have 1500 INT, then an artisan of 150 INT does not give me any magic damage whatsoever even if on paper it looks like 150 INT is much better than 7 magic attack. In such a case, the 7 magic attack upgrade would have been the true "highest damage" provided by the weapon.
• X wrote on 2016-02-01 20:31

  Quote from Rydian;1293521:

  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/User:Rydian/Main_Page_Merge

  
  
  Just a general note: I have no idea with the "current weather" is supposed to be showing me. It could use a little explanation imo.
  
  

  Quote from Rynn;1293524:

  As for what I meant, I referred to the actual damage provided to the player (since a weapon is just an item unless it is equipped). If I have 1500 INT, then an artisan of 150 INT does not give me any magic damage whatsoever even if on paper it looks like 150 INT is much better than 7 magic attack. In such a case, the 7 magic attack upgrade would have been the true "highest damage" provided by the weapon.

  
  
  I think that's something for the player to decide. If you're pushing 1500 int, you should know about the cap already, and you should therefore know you won't get anything out of it. I might suggest putting a note/warning on upgrades that contribute stats, but not calling them the highest max damage is wrong imo. Since, barring edge cases of capped stats, the artisan or whatever IS the upgrade that will give the user the most damage when equipped.
  
  This says nothing about bad artisan rolls, of course, but there's already warnings on the pages about that.
• Rynn wrote on 2016-02-01 20:33

  Quote from X;1293525:

  barring edge cases of capped stats

  
  
  The problem is that nowadays this is not edge cases, this is the norm (at least with INT and STR based weapons so far).
  If you try to sell a staff with an artisan in facebook you get 20 people telling you how much your weapon sucks. And they're just people who casually upgraded following what they thought was the "highest damage" upgrade. I just type artisan staff in a facebook group and see things like this:
  [SPOILER="spoiler"]

  [Image: http://i.imgur.com/uxnUv3O.png]

  [/SPOILER]
  
  And it's really not an endgame problem or anything like that, hot chocolate cater availability is stupidly high and the game has a large midgame population who can reach those caps with just the cater.
• Rydian wrote on 2016-02-01 20:43
  Alright for the Broadsword page I went and trimmed most of the upgrade sequences and modified two of them so there's some choice there based on character stats.
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Broadsword
  
  So two things before this continues.
  
  1 - What's a good label for the two types of upgrades? "High Weapon Balance" and "Low Weapon Balance" makes the lower one sound inferior even though that section may have much better stats.
  
  2 - As far as artisans, I vote to not have them included in the upgrade paths. It's a gamble and adds secondary characteristics instead of modding the weapon's core stats. Artisans can still really help lower level players, especially when you're dealing with anything other than Int (Int is the easiest stat to cap IIRC), but showing "This is what you get if you're really lucky" doesn't seem to fit well with equipment upgrades.
• X wrote on 2016-02-01 20:50
  I'm level 4xxx and I'm not running into those caps yet. My point is that the noobies who are looking to upgrade their weapon are going to be misled, whereas longtime players will know about caps and such, or at least notice the warning.
  
  I think artisans should be included in the table. They're still upgrades, after all, and the fact that they're based partially on RNGs and other stats doesn't change that. They could have bigger/better warnings, or maybe a whole new table/section, but not to include them in upgrade paths seems very misleading and unhelpful. Some people pick upgrade paths explicitly for the stat bonuses, and removing artisans would screw with them.
• Rynn wrote on 2016-02-01 20:52
  It's perfectly fine to include artisans upgrade paths, they just shouldn't be labeled as the best (and sometimes only) upgrade unless it really is (like some gun paths, shuriken or knuckles).
• Kadalyn wrote on 2016-02-01 21:07
  With regard to the front page: I do like this setup, though yeah those small ones aren't the "current weather" the one below is the current weather. The smaller ones are the current best locations for crafting bonuses, both generally and regarding special locations. Of course there's also the Rano one. The widgets can definitely change in size, too, though I'm not entirely sure what to go for with that. I'll play with it a bit more when I get home if you don't mind me editing your page directly.
  
  I think I agree with Rydian's viewpoint on artisans. If they're not required (ie. the only upgrade) then they probably shouldn't be included in the example paths. Also this reminds me that we haven't been including gem upgrades and I think we should, at least for items that have multiple options for it. Seems like you already fixed the titles, I like it better this way too!
• Snowie Stormflower wrote on 2016-02-01 22:11

  Quote from Rydian;1293521:

  Speaking of which, I still don't know how to change enchant data, for example when enchants get renamed or new locations in NA I don't know how to fix it.

  
  
  Go to the Template and choose More -> Move, then enter the new name for it, like...
  
  Template:DataEnchantBroken -> Template:DataEnchantFixed
  Then change the name atfer |name= within the template itself, then track down all template references and pages it is linked on and do the name changes there too. I do it manually although there's normally a bot for text replacements.
  
  Oh, and if you're 100% sure you've done all that, replace the contents of the old page with {{delete|Reason}} So the moderators can find it!
  
  Drop locations are placed after |ItemsDroppedBy=
  
  And if changes don't show up on other pages immediately, use More -> Purge.
  
  Also I'm not sure if I'm the only one seeing it but it kinda bothers me that "Forecast" (or at least the widget) is off-center, lol: (And what's gonna happen to the Daily Mission box when you get "The Sulfur Spider Inside The Shadow Realm"?)
  
  

  [Image: http://puu.sh/mSjOm/78abe63114.png]

  
  
  (I also think that the Pan-Mabinogi Logo should be on the right instead of the left, but that's personaly preference. Heck you even have space for something else there long stretching single lines of text are ugly)
  
  [SPOILER="So looong"]

  [Image: http://puu.sh/mSjY2/7ca3128fee.png]

  [/SPOILER]
• Kadalyn wrote on 2016-02-01 22:32
  Yeah it is off-center, Rydian said it weirded out when he tried to align it. If that's the case tho I think we should probably just make it wider like 100% of the td or w/e. The name will wrap if it's too long, also.
  
  The mini weathers not having timers is more concerning. :( Will have to look into that.
  
  wrt the logo, I'm not set on it being on the left or anything.