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Reptile wrote on 2012-09-13 22:18
Quote from Araria;950207:
Cyber bullying causes suicides!
Anyone who'd kill themselves over the stuff that's posted here would be #1 on my moron list.
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Maenad wrote on 2012-09-13 23:43
Quote from Reptile;950955:
Anyone who'd kill themselves over the stuff that's posted here would be #1 on my moron list.
Hanna, we should really be keeping on topic here.
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Wally wrote on 2012-09-13 23:47
Hi Hiccup here. Don’t stop reading just because you don’t like me. K? Ok. Also to the mods, feel free to ban this account after I post this. Some might be asking why the hell do I care, about this post? Well it’s because it was my idea to post something like this. I talked it over with Charmer and convinced her (Well, in reality I nagged her) to post this.
I had to re-type this whole post in Word because Osay doesn’t have a save response function, and that dumb login timeout is frustrating as hell when writing long responses. (Fix it Osay, seriously)
I know I was trying to think of ways to see how the community can change after I got banned because honestly this place is a drag. It’s been one for a while. I know people don’t like me, I don’t care. I know people won’t respect this post because I’m posting it, but it does hold a lot of truth considering how long I’ve been around. I’ve also seen how the Staff section works. I’ve been behind the scenes (the legality of it isn’t important), I’ve seen how hard it can be for the Mods and Admins to run this place. I’ve also seen a very eye-opening dark side to Nation that you wouldn’t think exists, but it does. And it plagues this place enormously. I’ve also been on the other side of the forum and was banned several times. I also have quite a few pages of infractions and warning on Hiccup’s profile that only I and the staff can see. I know exactly how situations are handled on both sides and when Mod’s step up, and where they don’t. Therefore I hold some valuable insight into what can make Nation a better place regardless of my current state, or future non-existent state (ie: say goodbye to me cause this is the last of me on Nation).
The move to the new forum is THE ONLY chance this forum has at staying alive and healthy as it represents a new start for everyone. A lot of things need to be re-worked on Nation so that major issues won’t completely flaw this forum. I’m going to outline my proposals as clearly as possible below to minimize any confusion. And yes, while the drama may seem fake, it does exist. It’s out there and I can’t believe people would even deny it. It may not be obvious but you can see it develop if you are active enough.
Proposal 1) This forum needs to become less cliquey. These cliques cause many problems, of which include…
Favoritism, Outsiders, Misunderstandings, and Arguments
Favoritism although widely known and talked about is hardly shown any examples, why? Because it is happening all the time on a subconscious level. The staff, and users who’ve been here since Nations birth have gotten to know some people so well that our inside jokes, our ways of communicating (playful trash talking, sarcasm etc) have become second nature to us. It causes misunderstandings from newer members and for lurkers. Especially because everyone in the major clique all communicate throughout Steam, Skype, and the various other games we play. We have unique moments together, we laugh, we have inside jokes. Were just having fun. But the newer members aren’t given the any reasonable chance at joining in, and that creates outsiders and intimidates those that are on the outside. This intimidation although hardly known is there, and it causes them not to post as much. It’s not the case for everyone, but it’s still a major issue. Were intimidating people through or friendship circles, and our inside jokes, without having open arms. This is bound to happen on any forum, and it’s not the primary issue it’s the cliquey behavior that is. We also have to look at those sitting on the outside, why aren’t they participating? Why don’t they come join us? They are more than welcome to come have fun with us, they just have to accept the crazy and relax. Because that crazy isn’t going anywhere, anytime soon.
My solution to the cliquey-ness: All active members need to be sent a detailed PM (with a read receipt) about the solutions the staff can come up with for the issues on Nation. Activity will be defined by login time. Just because a member is not posting doesn’t mean they aren’t actively lurking. Yes, they don’t really contribute to the forum but they are still members. Simply posting a topic in Mabination News isn’t going to be enough. Not everyone is going to read it. Those members who don’t give a damn about the PM/possible solutions are the issue. This tl;dr bullshit is an excuse for laziness and ignorance. The rules also need to be changed to encompass everyone’s opinion and not just those of the active members. Lurkers are potential members, they just need to feel welcomed. Now you can’t get everyone to read/follow the staff’s solution to the issue but you can either strictly enforce the solutions and reward those who do follow it. I won’t outline the possible solutions I see within the PM because the mods need to discuss it amongst their selves, plus they still need a job to do.
Proposal 2) Every single member needs to stop holding their personal opinions so dearly. What I mean by this is that, we can’t even debate on this forum because they turn either into flame wars, or members get easily offended by the counter arguments because they are taken so personally. Other people’s opinions or statements are taken completely serious, which about half of the time is taken out of context when taken completely seriously. People’s logical thinking is buried so much in one’s ego, or moral belief that arguments start from the tiniest thing. I’ve seen it happen before, and I’ve seen it happen recently. It’s a huge problem where we can’t communicate about interesting topics in a variety of ways because we have members who just completely trash any opposing opinion. I understand both side’s stance but it’s such a cut-throat community that it gets ridiculous some times. Debates are healthy when done right.
Another issue is that Nation has a lot of history for a forum that’s only been around a few years. So much has changed and happened amongst the community and staff that it’s not healthy for the forum at all. I don’t mean casual mod promotions/demotions, I mean drastic events. When TA was still active here is a perfect example of how much has changed in such a short amount of time. Things were happening extremely fast, and all at once. It was too much for the staff and the community. Things like those need to be taken at a considerably slower pace and with much more intellectual discussion behind it. For example, she should never have ever, been made a super mod or Admin just because the staff was in desperate need of help. The situation with Fal just up and leaving, and several mod disappearances as well cause a huge shortage in staff moderation which leads to troublesome issues. Any sort of events happening amongst the staff, or with the staff need to be taken at a pace where everyone can voice their opinion/counter-argument and it can be thoroughly discussed. There is a fine line between waiting to long, and reacting too soon though. That is something all the mods need to learn through first hand experience.
Lastly, the rules need to be heavily enforced. No matter how small or how big every situation should be dealt with fairness in regards to the rules. The rules are the rules, a moderator’s job is to enforce them. Otherwise what is stated in this ‘essay’ happens. Enforcing the rules is a tough job, especially for a volunteer I understand that we all have rough days and we are going to miss things. It’s human nature, we were born with these flaws. Yet, you can overcome them with a few solutions. Reward those who report posts. I don’t mean this as in a contest of who can report the most posts gets a new xbox! (exaggeration) I mean this as in any posts reported where the rules are clearly being broken, the user who reported them should be rewarded. People like being rewarded for good behavior, it’s how we consistently continue that sort of behavior. The rewards can vary based off of the staff discussion of it, but it shouldn’t be so tiny that it’s almost meaningless. Special name colors, or icons next to the name, pet trophies, etc. Are just a few examples of how when helping report troublesome issues X amount of times, earns you what’s mentioned above. That way, everyone has a chance at earning these, and they are helping the community out as well.
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Kazuni wrote on 2012-09-13 23:54
Since when did Hiccup become hated? o_o
I thought everyone always liked him just fine.
Anyway I agree with most of the stuff he said. Most of it. I can't actually remember the stuff I disagree with anyway so whatever.
There's just some petty things that I feel like people are blaming on the old mod team and honestly for some of them, we didn't even have a say in.
TA wasn't made a super mod or an admin because we were in need of help, imo. But that's just my opinion and it's kind of iffy at any rate so whatever.
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Wally wrote on 2012-09-13 23:57
Quote from Kazuni;951026:
Since when did Hiccup become hated? o_o
I thought everyone always liked him just fine.
I can name a few people who dont :P
Quote from Kazuni;951026:
Anyway I agree with most of the stuff he said. Most of it. I can't actually remember the stuff I disagree with anyway so whatever.
There's just some petty things that I feel like people are blaming on the old mod team and honestly for some of them, we didn't even have a say in.
I'm not trying to blame the old mod team either but I can bet the same stuff happens from what I've seen from the staff section.
Quote from Kazuni;951026:
TA wasn't made a super mod or an admin because we were in need of help, imo. But that's just my opinion and it's kind of iffy at any rate so whatever.
I know she was made mod because she was an event helper or whatever, she clearly didn't deserve the title or fit the reqs. for it.
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Kazuni wrote on 2012-09-14 00:03
Quote from Wally;951029:
I can name a few people who dont :P
I'm not trying to blame the old mod team either but I can bet the same stuff happens from what I've seen from the staff section.
I know she was made mod because she was an event helper or whatever, she clearly didn't deserve the title or fit the reqs. for it.
Lmao from what you've seen. I remember I called you an ass one time and you were all indignant about it. But I liked you most of the time so it's k.
I don't actually know why TA was made a mod. She seemed like much much less of an angry dictator normally. I thought she'd make a good mod a the time. Not that there was a discussion about it. Time, Skye, and TA were hired first and we were notified after. Lol.
I guess it's much the same as when my batch got hired. Phunkie, Okami, Baku, and I were hired by Fal apparently without a staff discussion either. I dunno.
A lot of things definitely changed in the staff section because of her. Tbh it was quite a slap in the face when she got like what, "mod manager" or something even though the way she acted in the staff section was basically open flaming and condescension when she wasn't talking business. Which became less and less often anyway.
I can't say it's all bad. The staff at the time were getting more lax and less active, and she was doing a lot of work, but honestly I'm still really angry over the way she treated me and some others, and I don't want to rant about it really but sometimes I just need to get it off my chest >_> It's not really something you get over, being stomped on constantly for a few months.
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Wally wrote on 2012-09-14 00:06
Quote from Kazuni;951032:
Lmao from what you've seen. I remember I called you an ass one time and you were all indignant about it. But I liked you most of the time so it's k.
I don't actually know why TA was made a mod. She seemed like much much less of an angry dictator normally. I thought she'd make a good mod a the time. Not that there was a discussion about it. Time, Skye, and TA were hired first and we were notified after. Lol.
I guess it's much the same as when my batch got hired. Phunkie, Okami, Baku, and I were hired by Fal apparently without a staff discussion either. I dunno.
A lot of things definitely changed in the staff section because of her. Tbh it was quite a slap in the face when she got like what, "mod manager" or something even though the way she acted in the staff section was basically open flaming and condescension when she wasn't talking business. Which became less and less often anyway.
I can't say it's all bad. The staff at the time were getting more lax and less active, and she was doing a lot of work, but honestly I'm still really angry over the way she treated me and some others, and I don't want to rant about it really but sometimes I just need to get it off my chest >_> It's not really something you get over, being stomped on constantly for a few months.
I know I read through the entire staff section at one point when she was still in power. It was literally ridiculous. I felt bad for everyone on the mod team except her. But now were off topic, and I'm starving after writing all that TWICE! :l
Bye~<3
(and I know I am an ass btw. Loved how you stood up to me XD)
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Murasaki wrote on 2012-09-14 00:56
I'm a bit scatterbrained right now thanks to a headache but I'll look through your post and respond when I can. Just letting you know, Brad. @.@
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Akemii wrote on 2012-09-14 01:18
I like dis site. I like u hannah.
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MareneCorp wrote on 2012-09-14 01:33
Not everyone will want to leave their cliques, maybe there's just too many people in a certain clique that it just gains power. Posts get ignored and the ignored just feel... like not a part of the forum. Part of where the hate starts to grow. For that, you can try to hold little events for newcomers and the lurkers or the ignored to try and encourage them into the forum life. Then there are the people that are disliked by other members of the forum, for WHATEVER reason. Simply banning them wouldn't do anything, but make it clear what they need to clean up about themselves, even send them tips on how to do it. There's also a lot of flame wars about whatever, religion, politics, etc. I think those kinds of threads need to be kept under control, maybe make a clear rule about posting, specifically, things in General Discussion?
Mods aren't always online (I really, really hope they have lives outside of browsing a forum) but from what they say, there isn't enough reporting going on. Maybe you can make the report button a tad bit more visible, maybe to remind people that it's there and it can be used? I don't mean an in-your-face push the big red button kind of report button, but certainly make it more visible and quite possibly ENCOURAGE people to use it when the situation calls for it.
I mean, this is just me, but my eyesight isn't the best.
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Kazuni wrote on 2012-09-14 01:42
and is it possible to make it so that it's like rep and stays on the same page?
it's not a big deal at all but sometimes it gets annoying to go back and forth.
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Valkyrio wrote on 2012-09-14 02:22
Just wanted to post this relevant tidbit posted by Kaeporo on another random thread (when it came to someone effectively spamming crap.)
What does it matter? People reputation spam each other. All I know is that someone is asking for help. Perhaps he should do a little more research. The wiki is a great resource. If people used the wiki for all information about Mabinogi then nation activity would be limited to the Bean Rua clique.
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Murasaki wrote on 2012-09-14 03:22
This is basically in response to Brad's post, though this new account's been banned.
Keep in mind my brain is still a little off so if I stop making sense at some point, I apologize in advance. *_*
I'm actually interested to see what the new forums will do. It's not like the forums are going to change entirely because of it, since the data will essentially be the same, but that's not to say all the features will be the same. I'm hoping it will be cleaner, and I don't mean just visually.
It's hard for any sort of community to not be clique-y because everyone has different opinions, thoughts, etc., and they will naturally gravitate towards people like themselves, who they can agree with and feel at ease with. I don't mind if people have their circle of friends. Their problem is really in their antagonizing behavior. Even if it's subtle, when it's there, people will notice it (and it's definitely there. I've seen instances today where rules aren't broken but there's a tone I'm not crazy about). People need to be reminded constantly about their behavior. Repeatedly. Not everyone, of course.
The other issue you bring up is something I agree with, basically. People need to understand the difference between discussion of opposing views, and outright insults. Some people get opinions that oppose their own and they're claiming that they're being flamed. Some will actually report this, but others will react badly when dealing with the other side, and end up getting in trouble themselves. "I don't agree with you because..." is different than "Omg you're so stupid just shut up already."
I feel like when we (the current staff) became staff members, things were moving crazy fast. None of the new staff members new what was going to happen to the old ones. There was a thread a while ago that somehow brought up the 'Nation tag on tumblr. I got curious so I looked and saw a good deal of unhappiness. Why so much drama? Because things were too sudden. I felt like I was being judged for something I hadn't even done yet. No one was informed and people were getting blamed for things. Chaos. Things slowed down eventually, but sometimes, things still blow up kind of like that.
Yes, we get that we're not perfection, but we're not the only ones responsible for this forum. The entire community should have the forum's best interest and behave accordingly. No one should make a mess then leave it behind just because there's someone else who'll have to clean it up.
At the very least, I can say I don't have any problems with any other staff member. None of them make me feel antagonized, so there isn't the kind of nightmarish inside horror I keep hearing about. It's kind of sad to have to say this about an old staff member, but basically it's been smooth since TA left.
Quote from Kazuni;951112:
and is it possible to make it so that it's like rep and stays on the same page?
it's not a big deal at all but sometimes it gets annoying to go back and forth.
Like a pop-up window?
That might be something to consider for the new forum. Osay did say Nation was basically going to stay like this until the switch.
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Loopulse wrote on 2012-09-14 04:02
How about we have mods for certain sections? Like for example, if there are basically no mods in the cooking section and general section, then we would find a user who is mature and active in those sections, and they could become a moderator.
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Reptile wrote on 2012-09-14 04:06
Quote from Loopulse;951193:
How about we have mods for certain sections? Like for example, if there are basically no mods in the cooking section and general section, then we would find a user who is mature and active in those sections, and they could become a moderator.
That was the normal mod's duties but since everyone's a super mod they regulate all over.
I just think certain super mods should focus on some areas more than the rest.
For example: General Discussion, Bean Rua, and Mabinogi is where most bad things stem from, have more people focusing there than anywhere.