You're still stating an opinion(s), despite what you say. But whatever you say. :gloom2:
From what you have stated, it seemed like G13 skills were only available to hybrids.
"you don't want to or can't branch out the person that doesn't will always be stronger then you because now they have those extra skills to give them an edge."
pure people are able to rank those extra skills. nobody has an edge other anyone, all are equal.
Also from what you have stated, it seemed as if hybrids are stronger than pures and that a balancing was required to bring them equal.
"The old class system gave extra skills for the specialized person to rank so they don't have to leave their branch of combat to be on the same level as someone that has left their branch."
Explain to me in facts and logic how hybrids are stronger than meele pure when faced with the fact that
meele/range hybrid and meele pure have exactly same str (since skills give same stats to everyone). the range skills that the meele/range hybrid ranked will not affect the damage calculation as dex doesn't improve meele damage.
Also, if you want to be purely any class, save ur ap. As you will be able to rank those new skills coming out way before those hybrids out of ap trying to rank all the skills in the game.
When meleeing, pure warriors are always at least as good as warrior/archer hybrids, at lower levels a lot better. But when they encounter a situation in which range is the better option, such as ciar adv boss, pure warriors choke, where hybrids would easily wipe the boss. That's what people mean when they say hybrids are better than pures.
I think a class system that penalizes specialization would breathe new life into this game. Everyone's always spinning. Peaca/cahm/rahm/etc party strategy is always wm --> corner wm, after which the only exciting thing is timing your stam pots. Even mages and archers tuck their favored weapons away to spin. Specialization will make ranged and magic a lot more powerful and popular than they are now, and also discourage or prevent non-warriors from spinning. Warriors may get a boost to their abilities, but lose out on range and magic, making them a lot less appealing. The current population is like 90% warrior, everyone is built the same and act the same. Let's see something new.
When meleeing, pure warriors are always at least as good as warrior/archer hybrids, at lower levels a lot better. But when they encounter a situation in which range is the better option, such as ciar adv boss, pure warriors choke, where hybrids would easily wipe the boss. That's what people mean when they say hybrids are better than pures.
I think a class system that penalizes specialization would breathe new life into this game. Everyone's always spinning. Peaca/cahm/rahm/etc party strategy is always wm --> corner wm, after which the only exciting thing is timing your stam pots. Even mages and archers tuck their favored weapons away to spin. Specialization will make ranged and magic a lot more powerful and popular than they are now, and also discourage or prevent non-warriors from spinning. Warriors may get a boost to their abilities, but lose out on range and magic, making them a lot less appealing. The current population is like 90% warrior, everyone is built the same and act the same. Let's see something new.
When meleeing, pure warriors are always at least as good as warrior/archer hybrids, at lower levels a lot better. But when they encounter a situation in which range is the better option, such as ciar adv boss, pure warriors choke, where hybrids would easily wipe the boss. That's what people mean when they say hybrids are better than pures.
I think a class system that penalizes specialization would breathe new life into this game. Everyone's always spinning. Peaca/cahm/rahm/etc party strategy is always wm --> corner wm, after which the only exciting thing is timing your stam pots. Even mages and archers tuck their favored weapons away to spin. Specialization will make ranged and magic a lot more powerful and popular than they are now, and also discourage or prevent non-warriors from spinning. Warriors may get a boost to their abilities, but lose out on range and magic, making them a lot less appealing. The current population is like 90% warrior, everyone is built the same and act the same. Let's see something new.
but what the class supporters are saying is that if there are classes, then pures will be equal to hybrid in power.
in that ciar adv boss example, a meele with 50 more dmg won't really change much.
what they need is not a class, but new strategy. i read your 3rd hand guide and learned to solo the ciar adv golems with pets. just pet smash the golems out of aggro. lure sprites with bolts (this was part of old class knight so u cant argue that i was using magic) and wm then smash. afterwards just smash the golem and charge wm. send pets to lower their hp if they r wming.
so them saying pure builds are weak aren't really valid.
i do agree that other type of combat people should be in mabi. But class isn't a solution to that, they just need strategies to use other skillsets effectively.
being a warrior is low costed and pretty effective, but with a correct strategy other skillsets can be better than warrior (eg. mana master build)
so basically, class won't solve the problem of everyone being a warrior, but dedication will.
Exactly.
And it's not that restriction equals diversity. Restriction equals balance that equals diversity.
but what the class supporters are saying is that if there are classes, then pures will be equal to hybrid in power.
in that ciar adv boss example, a meele with 50 more dmg won't really change much.
what they need is not a class, but new strategy. i read your 3rd hand guide and learned to solo the ciar adv golems with pets. just pet smash the golems out of aggro. lure sprites with bolts (this was part of old class knight so u cant argue that i was using magic) and wm then smash. afterwards just smash the golem and charge wm. send pets to lower their hp if they r wming.
so them saying pure builds are weak aren't really valid.
i do agree that other type of combat people should be in mabi. But class isn't a solution to that, they just need strategies to use other skillsets effectively.
being a warrior is low costed and pretty effective, but with a correct strategy other skillsets can be better than warrior (eg. mana master build)
so basically, class won't solve the problem of everyone being a warrior, but dedication will.
I guess the idea of classes appeals to me. I like mabi's get-touched-and-die and kb system but the way it's set up leads to too much reliance on wm. A class system would add a lot of diversity to the game without ruining it. Seems like a good solution to me.
In the ciar adv example, warriors can pet smash the golems away, draw a sprite with 2x ice, swipe it, and then run behind to smash it toward the wall to smashmill, but that takes a lot of time, and the damage isn't very good (melee's appeal lies in its wm's aoe, after all). AR spam probably kills a lot faster. [it would be really cool if warriors had a slight dmg boost to encourage the more adventurous ones to charge in and swipemill all 4 mobs at once and brave the pd, seems to fit the warrior spirit right?]
If the progression is really warrior --> mana master, then at the beginning of the game everyone is a warrior, a year in we might have a few mm's, and by the 2nd year nearly everyone is now spamming thunder instead of wm. You don't really get diversity this way. Perhaps we could if they planned out some new strategies, but a soft class system that encourages specialization seems like a much fresher approach.
Balance and diversity does not have any relation.
Also I don't see why a distinction between hybrid and pure is required (I apologize that i used those terms as I needed to in order to be consistent with the thread). There are players that have r1 TH,FB,IS, and Blaze and considers themselves pure meele. Obviously, that is not "pure". Mabinogi is a game of being able to be anything you want.
Unlike other MMORPGS where only one class is required to hunt stuff. Mabinogi is built to benefit diverse in skills (COUGH COUGH PASSIVE DEFENSE COUGH and there are certain mobs where a skillset isn't rly effective: eg. meele vs. beetle wolf) so that is why hybrids seem to be better than pures and that does not require balance as you would need to flip mabinogi upside down to correct all those. However, you can still get past that obstruction with great strategies and decisions (eg. pet play). Just because it looks hard doesn't mean it is impossible.
Compared to other boring games, Mabinogi is a COMPLEX game. A good analogy would be eating a steak. Normally, most people would use fork and knife to eat the steak, but if you decide to be pure, you can eat the steak using only your fork and lift that 1 pound meat everytime you take a bite. It is still doable.
TL;DR, class=/=diversity and pure builds are hardmode and hybrid builds are easymode. Don't like how pures can't have same power as hybrid? Then go play a SIMPLE game, mabinogi is too difficult for you.
The thing is class doesn't seem to solve anything, if it is best to use wm till you have enough aps to become mm, then they will just become knight then go to wizard.
and you're not really accepting the fact that people "want the freedom to stay a pure" at the same time being able to match hybrids in combat
and people have got to stop using "pet strategies" as an excuse or anything in their explainations, we need to consider that this game could be played just fine without using nx at all, and pets are not part of that
also put into consideration that newbs don't have full access to all of Mabinogi, or the fact that noone is ever likely to reach endgame within a matter of months
there is diversity in balance because when one is stronger than another, the logical thing to do is to go towards the stronger
there are some people that like a challenge, but this new class system kinda takes away quite abit of that for those people
and being as strong as a pro could possibly make this community abit nicer, so that we don't have some egotistic elitists running around bragging about their achievements all the time (at some point in time you're strength is going to hit a deadend/ come to a stand still anyways)
And there is no reason you're giving that pures can't be equal to hybrids other than "This is Mabinogi". That's not a real reason, it's a game and It's content can change. If this class system had gone through, this whole thing would be reversed, I'd be the one telling you to quit and you'd be giving reasons in your defense as well. Just be glad that a ton of Mabinogi Korea players don't like the think things through and keep their minds closed.