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Vanof wrote on 2010-08-18 08:00
First off, I'd like to say this is my first Mabination guide. I only write exclusive guides! :thumb:
As a disclaimer, this isn't a very technical guide. It's very brushy, and not a guide for actual aspiring melee elves. It's simply to point out some obvious things noted from a bit of research, that melee elves can indeed be effective!
Melee Elves do not suck!
First off, I will clear off misconceptions. Elves have roughly the same base damage potential as humans. Their running speed and hide ability makes them much more versatile and dynamic. Their losses come solely from the fact they cannot dual wield, and that they have less damage bonuses from skills like windmill.
You will notice this made up, though!
So, elaborate on their advantages, please.
Alright. I've put it down that:
a) Elves are fast
b) Elves can hide
Butttt, what else? Elves naturally gain much more dex than humans, therefore it is easier to use low balance weapons. From ages 18~22, elves have the same strength gain as humans, so don't worry.(0.5 level per) If you're 3-week-rebirthing, this can become a disadvantage though, obviously.
Elaborating on their speed now, it can be advantageous for pulling off combos with more safe room.(such as charge->run up->wm when you are not r1)
Hmmmm... I see what you're saying... but how do you make up for the damage?
The same way humans make up for ranged damage-- By raising your strength skills. Now there's carpentry! You lose quite a bit of potential strength due to final hit, sadly~
I'm not convinced. What about weapons?
Personally, I recommend using the same sword setups humans use, but with a shield of your choice instead. 222 broads are very useable! If you really want the damage, go for a 200 build warhammer.
As far as egos are concerned, I personally recommend the Mace, or Gladius. The mace offers much higher strength, and the gladius offers lower strength(~16 less max damage), but offers great critical.(30 as opposed to 5, and 45 as opposed to 9 maxed luck)
About the two-hander situation~... Brionac, lol..
Honestly, if you want good two-hander damage, actually use that Brionac and rank Spark to rank 1(assuming you can get it)
Spark+Brionac has probably the highest possible damage rate in the game right now.
Elves lack heavy armor dood!
:lol:
Take advantage of it and either wear clothes or light armor, and use accessories as extra enchant slots! Dur!
Any other stuff you recommend ranking? for luls?
Uhhhh. yes, actually! You'll want rank 9 ice to better chain attacks, and once your melee is done(you can only do so much) I recommend exploring magic with blaze-- It works surprisingly well with melee attacks. It is an afterthought, though.
To make up for a lack of hp/defense, elves have mana shield as well. Yes, humans have it too, but when transformed elves get a pretty hefty mp boost.
Back to damage........
(note: these are NOT the exact damage formulas or with real numbers, it is for proportional purposes only)
Human: r1 smash, let's say 250 max damage and dual wielding swords. 250 x 2 x 5 = 2500 damage, with crit 6250 damage.(r1 critical)
Elf: r1 smash, and let's say 215 max damage due to lower strength from skills. 215 x 5 = 1075 damage, with crit 2687.5 damage.
wait.......... What? Something is severely wrong here... Lookie dose rates! Yes, but that's because he was dual wielding! Let's take a step back please.
Human: r1 smash, let's say 250 max damage and with a shield rather than dual wielding. 250 x 5 = 1250, with crit 3150.
So~ Not as big of a difference. Grant it, ~500 damage is still a big difference as it is.
Elves do less damage!
:T_T: Waaaaaah~ cry cry~
On the positive side, you're always using a shield and have that much more potential for defense and PD. An elf with a shield and upgraded light armor can have more defense than a human with upgraded heavy armor dual wielding.
You also get some PD to make up for the lack of heavy armor PD.
So in summary--
Elves have many shortcomings to human melee, but they're not as short as you might think. There is a ton of damage dealing potential lost, still, but elf melee can be seen as much safer and defensive, rather than offensive.
This is not a full guide covering everything, it's only to hopefully show you that elf melee is still effective.
Melee for an elf is like range for a human, they trade off. Humans have to work harder to do good range damage, as elves have to work harder to do good melee damage. That's how I believe it is, at least.
Giants are still the best at melee, though. Sorry. :XD:
With that said, in closing I honestly think for all characters, ranking a variety will benefit you the most. In the case of being an elf, I recommend ranking range some and finding ways to work your bow into your melee combos-- that is when you'll become truly effective and you will shine! The same goes for magic and alchemy, of course, elves just happen to naturally be good at range.
Anyway, I hope this was helpful.
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Shirayuki wrote on 2010-08-18 08:09
You don't really go over combos or really anything to help them reach end game elf melee. All you really point out is weapon choices and obvious advantages and disadvantages. Honestly, I think this guide is just common sense typed out as a wall.
/runs
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Vanof wrote on 2010-08-18 08:15
Why run?
That's exactly what it is! A wall of common sense. I've just been annoyed by people shooting down elf melee as ineffective, so I wrote this.
Perhaps I can come back later and write and write a more extensive part 2, which covers more (real, this time)numbers and tactics, for actual aspiring melee elves.
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Shirayuki wrote on 2010-08-18 08:17
/safe
If you put in some tactics, you should tell people if they are lagless, they can pull off charge->elf smash :D
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Phunkie wrote on 2010-08-18 08:19
On the dual-wielding damage calculation for Smash, it's not the max damage times 2, then times 5.
It's your [bare-handed damage + 2*(max weapon damage)]*5.
Not including enchants, that is.
But I get your point.
I like this. It's simple, but straight to the point. Elves definitely should use the speed advantage in battle, whether their Range or Melee. It helps either way.
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Justified wrote on 2010-08-18 08:20
Your calculations are off (dual wield smash isn't x2 x5)
Humans have way more max damage than 215 vs 250
The lack of heavy armor is a serious disadvantage to any attempt at tanking in harder scenarios
Lack of dual-wielding and viable 2h weapons deprives them of both high-damage, and high-delay setups (in addition to no high-defense)
Humans can still get perfect balance with any practical weapon, with room to spare
It's possible to do good damage with them, yes. They're still hugely disadvantaged and require much much more effort though.
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Vanof wrote on 2010-08-18 08:28
Sorry about the damage formula. I'll admit, I've honestly never looked up the melee damage formulas. I'll edit the guide to make a footnote.
Also: There are only so many skills to rank strength, Justified. Not like there are a surplus of life skills to rank for dex. Although windmill takes more effort to train, for example, elves actually take less AP to max out their strength potential.
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Andy-Buddy wrote on 2010-08-18 08:31
Future Dragon Heavy armor sounds nice, and really, combos are the only point elves have that doesn't make them suck completely.
The ability to integrate magic and ranged into their melee helps them do even more damage, in shorter amounts of time.
Instead of a human having to use Charge or use a weak Windmill with a bow to pull off an AR, they can simply N+Ranged, and stunlock an enemy.
This is from Dueling Perspective, but it could be applied to PvE.
Mirage + Windmill does work wonders in large rooms, though.
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Rose wrote on 2010-08-18 08:33
Sorry to shoot you down bro, but Range/Melee hybrid is the way to go.
It seems to me like your saying that humans never used 2h's, lots of humans i know RARELY use 2h's and even then it's in a non-serious situation.
Who are we kidding.
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Rose wrote on 2010-08-18 08:33
Sorry to shoot you down bro, but Range/Melee hybrid is the way to go.
It seems to me like your saying that humans never used 2h's, lots of humans i know RARELY use 2h's and even then it's in a non-serious situation.
Who are we kidding.
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Vanof wrote on 2010-08-18 08:37
Please tell me where I said, or said something that you could infer that 2h's were obsolete.
Also: Please actually read my last paragraph.
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Rebel wrote on 2010-08-18 08:45
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Justified wrote on 2010-08-18 08:45
Quote from Vanof;129715:
Sorry about the damage formula. I'll admit, I've honestly never looked up the melee damage formulas. I'll edit the guide to make a footnote.
Also: There are only so many skills to rank strength, Justified. Not like there are a surplus of life skills to rank for dex. Although windmill takes more effort to train, for example, elves actually take less AP to max out their strength potential.
Stats and Skills - Mabinogi World Wiki
Elves are at a 74 Str disadvantage, which is 28 damage. If you take that as is, then it's no big deal. But factor in dual wielding (which can be over 100+ more damage for humans) or two-handed weapons (around 90 more damage over single-wield) and compare that with a faster Smash load time (2.0 vs 2.5) then humans start taking a bigger lead. On a Smash Crit, that's around 1.8k more damage, with 0.5 second less load time.
http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Stats_and_skills#Dexterity
Comparing Human-only skills to Elf-only skills, Humans get 90 Dex and Elves get 95. Throw in Refine and both are at around 130. It's not that hard for a Human to find 70 more Dex, enough for most weapons to get 80%.
Quote from CableCrook;129720:
Sorry to shoot you down bro, but Range/Melee hybrid is the way to go.
It seems to me like your saying that humans never used 2h's, lots of humans i know RARELY use 2h's and even then it's in a non-serious situation.
Who are we kidding.
I know quite a few people who use 2H, including myself. Dual-wielding is twice the repairs, twice the holy water, less stun, and inability to spam auto-deadly with low-HP build. All that for like 30 more damage? No thanks.
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Vanof wrote on 2010-08-18 08:51
On a side note, I'm mainly 2h when I melee on my human as well. In fact, I ego'd a 2h.
They're very effective.
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Rose wrote on 2010-08-18 08:52
I was meaning the same for dual-weilding, Justified.
And remember, theres less Windmill and Counter damage.
Lastly, elves get less defense (Base)
However, i do accept that a Melee/Magic hybrid (Using Blaze) would kick some serious ass.
@Vanof
I completely agree with you, my guild leader (Hiro of MabiNation) has one and its scarily effective.