Thoughts on Renovation?

• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-05-17 08:12

  Quote from Kaeporo;1275261:

  It doesn't really matter if Meteor Strike costs 10 mana or 500 mana. It's inaccessible enough to newer players that reducing the cost won't alter its usage. This is a trivial matter at best.

  
  
  I'm naturally inclined to disagree. Why does an ADVANCED spell of all things have a drastically less resource cost that an "inferior" Intermediate type? That's just terribly illogical. Also, newbies can access Meteor from the start by birthing/rebirthing into Merlin.
  
  What about Sakura Abyss and Hail Storm, then? They're both more easily accessible than Meteor, the former moreso.
  
  

  Quote from ironwoman;1275284:

  Giant Smash with even just Smash accessories will outdamage/DPS bash.
  
  If the said Giant actually has decent damage, you can see it shine through various multipliers, like rage impact, support shot, combo cards, etc.

  
  
  That sounds more like endgame. Human beginner/mid game would just dwarf them still.
• ironwoman wrote on 2015-05-17 08:14

  Quote from gundamweed;1275285:

  I really doubt you've worked out the math.

  
  
  You can take in the value of piercing as well, in which cases, in more higher end contents, lances will still shine compared to other bashing weapons, if not on same level, as it was intended to.
  
  And if you want to talk about doing the math, I could just call out on a player not really being experienced. If I recall, you were an individual who thought Lion Claw Lance was superior to Knight Lance at some point. In the video you showed, which I'd assume is you, you're doing 6k crit bash on barrier spikes... which is really not even a mid game damage. I'm pretty damn sure I know this game much more than you do.
  
  

  Quote from Darkboy132;1275287:

  
  That sounds more like endgame. Human beginner/mid game would just dwarf them still.

  
  
  Someone gets it. Why would I be considering the beginner/mid game?
  
  In earlier contents, Bash will out DPS, in which case won't matter because mobs die too quick. In contents where mobs' defensive stats become an issue, that's where you see lances, as it was intended to. Bash will still do great, and unless we're talking the miniscule amount of mobs with ridiculous defensive stats, lances will lose out without smash reforges.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-05-17 08:27

  Quote from Darkboy132;1275287:

  I'm naturally inclined to disagree.

  
  
  I'm not saying that Meteor Strike shouldn't cost more mana. All i'm saying is that they've got bigger fish to fry.
  
  If anything, the low mana cost suits the usefulness of Meteor Strike; which is to say that it's not that useful.
  
  

  Quote from gundamweed;1275285:

  I really doubt you've worked out the math.

  
  
  Rage Impact hardly matters at all concerning DPS. It's boosting one Smash out of ten (increase of 5%, at best).
  
  Bash reliably hits 1.5x a second. Smash has a cooldown of 3 seconds. Smash would need to deal 4.5x more damage than Bash in order for this to be accurate. You also have to consider that Bash is just a better skill than Smash, with none of its fatal flaws (not to mention, it's not like overkill damage matters when fighting multiple mobs).
  
  If nothing else, the fact that people can solo normal girgashiy w/Bash is a testament to its strength.
• gundamweed wrote on 2015-05-17 09:12

  Quote from ironwoman;1275288:

  You can take in the value of piercing as well, in which cases, in more higher end contents, lances will still shine compared to other bashing weapons, if not on same level, as it was intended to.
  
  And if you want to talk about doing the math, I could just call out on a player not really being experienced. If I recall, you were an individual who thought Lion Claw Lance was superior to Knight Lance at some point. In the video you showed, which I'd assume is you, you're doing 6k crit bash on barrier spikes... which is really not even a mid game damage. I'm pretty damn sure I know this game much more than you do.
  
  
  
  

  
  
  First, those wall were from HM, which do have a good amount of damage reduction. Second, those maces are absolutely clean in every way possible. I'm not trying to showcase damage. If I wanted to show you what I can do, I'd pull out a 30k smash with a secret pen knight lance, without any of the nonsense of rage impact, support shot, weapon power potions, catering, bone chips, ele 6 or smash reforges. Now, I don't know about your standards, but from what I've seen, the amount of people who I've personally seen pass that , I can count on my fingers. Please, tell me how is that not even qualified for mid-game, if not a good argument for end game.
  
  Now, onto the main point. This is about the facts, not about the player and their experience. This is not about pointing out a comment made well over a year ago, in which I did recognize several points and was very specific about the context of my claim. I don't see how "calling me out" would change any fact or numerical statement. It seems you're just grasping at straws for not having complete information and doing whatever you can to save face. But hey, since you're so adamant on your statement, I'll show you a mathematical situation.
  
  Say a giant and a human both have 600 base max damage. One uses a secret pen demonic lance with thames set and the other uses black fog nightmare (for the sake of simplicity) CRK swords with whatever since his bashing isn't reliant on one gear set, respectively. Let's say they're in some area where the lance is set up for success, a theoretical area where the enemies have 40% damage reduction. the giant's max might come out to something like 750 and the human might have a max damage of 788, counting for all sorts of masteries. Now, if we assume elementals at the max level on each weapon, while still taking into account the 40% damage reduction, then the giant and human come out to 1166 max and 682 max. a giant's smash will do 9660 and a bash at the 5th level will do 3454, taking into account the CRK bash boost, if it's at 10%, which could be wrong and be more.
  
  So at this point, we're comparing 9660 damage every 3 seconds versus 3454, which can do about five bashes, if not more, in that same time span.
  
  This is a fairly endgame player assumption, in an area where the lance is supposed to be at an advantage. Yet there seems to be a fairly large gap. It doesn't take a mabinogi virtuoso to see that 10*1 is smaller than 3*5.
  
  Any more protection causes the loss of effectiveness of pierce, putting the favor more in the bash damage, and any less protection, and bash does more, still putting it in its favor. This sweet spot of 40% damage reduction is the only one where the lance can make its claim, and it's still behind.
  
  Now, please, show me the math where you disprove me because you've failed to do so yet.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-05-17 10:25

  Quote from Kaeporo;1275289:

  If nothing else, the fact that people can solo normal girgashiy w/Bash is a testament to its strength.

  
  
  Final Hit outweighs Bash for burst, but Bash is actually superior over time. With only Focused Sith Sabers, my Final Hit from the getgo takes Girgashiy down to ~70%, and repeated Bash uses bring it down to ~20% before my Final Hit cooldown ends and finishes it off, even with level 6 cooldown reduction (-36 seconds). That's a pretty damning example of Bash's absurd power.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-05-17 11:11

  Quote from Darkboy132;1275295:

  Final Hit outweighs Bash for burst, but Bash is actually superior over time. With only Focused Sith Sabers, my Final Hit from the getgo takes Girgashiy down to ~70%, and repeated Bash uses bring it down to ~20% before my Final Hit cooldown ends and finishes it off, even with level 6 cooldown reduction (-36 seconds). That's a pretty damning example of Bash's absurd power.

  
  
  I'm talking about normal Girgashiy, not solo.
• Zunori wrote on 2015-05-17 13:12
  This argument that's been happening pretty much sums up the state of the game right now. The only thing that matters is damage. Who cares about clearing contents when everything dies in a flick of a finger anyways? There is no way to measure skill anymore because there is no content sufficiently difficult anymore.
  
  This why everyone looks back to 5~6 years ago near the time of release as the "glory days". The mindset back then was to show off your skill and overall strength in the game through what you could do in regards to completion. Now all that matters is damage, that's all people look to, because there is no more sense of progression through content. It fell behind too far back.
• ironwoman wrote on 2015-05-17 14:41

  Quote from gundamweed;1275290:

  Snip.

  
  
  Considering that I'm doing 10k with weapon shop broad swords on HM walls, and my strength is definitely not capped, I'd say that's a long way to go. But that's besides the point.
  
  When it comes to melee, 750-88 max isn't really the "fairly end game max", that's a pretty mid game damage. Even so, taking account into the damage you provided, we can make few adjustments because of these conditions: People will use 67th's Floors instead, as well as Oblivion Alteration Cooking pot which is pretty much 100 max missing. And as I mentioned before, you will not outdamage Bash with Smash if you're not going to use Smash reforges. I never said Smash by itself will outdamage, which you seem to have missed.
  
  If we take in the account of reforges, for actually plausible value, we can use Smash 16 reforge (6 from accs, 10 from weapons, which you should at least expect to have if you're going to make your gear optimized towards Smash, and is actually very plausible compared to more high end reforges, especially considering that a player would have to reforge two elemental swords), and the other possible combo card value, again, plausible values, not max (1+1.1[2nd hit] + 1.22 [3rd hit] + 1.32 [4th hit] + 1.5 [5th hit] + 1.75 [6th hit]). Now with base Smash value of 880%, before the Thames set bonus, and the damage is 1317 max versus 682. In this set up, if you do all the calculation, counting all the bash counts too, Smash beats out bash, both skills doing a bit more than 100k in that timeframe. Then there's the part where you can count Support Shot, which won't be able affect all the bash hits, and the gap will be larger from that point on.
  
  With even more bonuses available (higher smash reforge, combo card bonus, Support Shot more readily available), Smash will outdamage furthermore, and although it maybe hard to do, it's still a piece of cake compared to asking for 6/6/6 elemental reforge. There are many lances lying around with elemental 5-6 with Smash 15+ reforges, as well as potentially higher number on combo cards.
  
  I'll say this once and again, because you seemed to have missed it, but Smash will NOT outdamage Bash without reforges, and when you really want to talk end game damage, you need to consider other applicable multipliers.
• Oberynn wrote on 2015-05-17 15:26
  With a Fast weapon (crk) and mediocre EST connection I have bashed 5 times (stationary) in the exact same amount of time I would have performed a smash (stationary). Counter is pretty much always at 5 anyway unless you switch weapons since the reset timer is so ridiculous and double bash lets it stack in no time.
  
  5x 506% = 2530% vs 910% (Giant with 2h/lance + thames + smash lv 3 accs + access to ele reforge) OR 1186.8% (Giant with 2h/lance + thames + smash 26).
  
  Idk but 910% with an ele 6 is 1415% and even on the very last slot of a jimbob tier combo card (87%) it's only 2646%.
  
  On the other hand, ele 3 + 3 bash is 3653% all day erry day and even better proportionally vs ele 6 on ele immune.
  
  Sure, you can add piercing to the equation but keep in mind the swords have a lot more raw max/min damage as well as more critical damage than a lance so it's not an entirely one sided battle. Also, let's remember that now we can just brionac FH anything we don't like without losing any dura.
  
  Also, not all enemies are gonna be advance heavy stander just chilling there for you to smash them in fact only bosses in general will. And even on perfect semi-stationary enemies like that I'm sure i'm not the only person who's used lances and has to reposition for a second or two every few smashes because the minimum distance and position lag sure are fun.
  
  To each their own, but even if the bash DPS wasn't so ridiculous I would keep on bashing just cause it's mechanically better in most ways, doesn't cockblock DPS from my teammates and efficiency wise many fast low % hits are making a comeback vs single high % hits (look at kunai storm vs shooting rush).
  
  And while we discuss smash vs bash there are people out there looking at us like peasants for discussing peasant skills while they only have 7 seconds of downtime when alternating wotg and final hit.
  
  tl;dr: I removed smash from hotkeys and I would too even if I played a 87% combo card lance giant.
• Kenero wrote on 2015-05-17 16:14

  Quote from ironwoman;1275303:

  Considering that I'm doing 10k with weapon shop broad swords on HM walls, and my strength is definitely not capped, I'd say that's a long way to go. But that's besides the point.
  
  When it comes to melee, 750-88 max isn't really the "fairly end game max", that's a pretty mid game damage. Even so, taking account into the damage you provided, we can make few adjustments because of these conditions: People will use 67th's Floors instead, as well as Oblivion Alteration Cooking pot which is pretty much 100 max missing. And as I mentioned before, you will not outdamage Bash with Smash if you're not going to use Smash reforges. I never said Smash by itself will outdamage, which you seem to have missed.
  
  If we take in the account of reforges, for actually plausible value, we can use Smash 16 reforge (6 from accs, 10 from weapons, which you should at least expect to have if you're going to make your gear optimized towards Smash, and is actually very plausible compared to more high end reforges, especially considering that a player would have to reforge two elemental swords), and the other possible combo card value, again, plausible values, not max (1+1.1[2nd hit] + 1.22 [3rd hit] + 1.32 [4th hit] + 1.5 [5th hit] + 1.75 [6th hit]). Now with base Smash value of 880%, before the Thames set bonus, and the damage is 1317 max versus 682. In this set up, if you do all the calculation, counting all the bash counts too, Smash beats out bash, both skills doing a bit more than 100k in that timeframe. Then there's the part where you can count Support Shot, which won't be able affect all the bash hits, and the gap will be larger from that point on.
  
  With even more bonuses available (higher smash reforge, combo card bonus, Support Shot more readily available), Smash will outdamage furthermore, and although it maybe hard to do, it's still a piece of cake compared to asking for 6/6/6 elemental reforge. There are many lances lying around with elemental 5-6 with Smash 15+ reforges, as well as potentially higher number on combo cards.
  
  I'll say this once and again, because you seemed to have missed it, but Smash will NOT outdamage Bash without reforges, and when you really want to talk end game damage, you need to consider other applicable multipliers.

  
  
  That's reasonable and good to point out that with investment to reforge.
  
  However I feel that only applies to enemies with advance heavy stander.
  
  In terms of knockbackable enemies, bash would actually output smash merely because you don't have to play catchup whereas with Bash, the enemy is not knocked back but in a stun state.
  
  Then again, most knockable enemies die in a few hits, so it's a moot point, but it can mean the difference between double bashing enemies and finishing it in one skill use as oppose to smash and then catching up to the enemy to smash them again.
  
  Things can be resolved by things like assault, but if assault is in cd or if they don't die from the assault, you're wasting time after assault to wm/def/counter etc. the enemy.
  
  Then again this is one of my personal experience vs. applied paper results.
  
  There were times I have smash and then follow up with another smash successfully after an assault, but there are times where it didn't go as plan, which is why bash not knocking back, stunning, and the double hits is invaluable to me.
• gundamweed wrote on 2015-05-17 17:44

  Quote from ironwoman;1275303:

  blah

  
  
  You bring up some valid points, such as use of that cooking pot. Sure, if we're going to compare two r1 reforged weapons being dual wield, why not compare a r1 cooking pot with a r1 lance?
  
  Still, to continue in the face of all the evidence against your argument from now several credible people, I'm starting to suspect you just enjoy being contrarian. Your argument is basically "smash will win if the planets align and you buy limited supply enchants (which can cost as much as one CRK sword), rely on combo cards, and have to take in external factors, and hope you get BOTH a high ele and high smash reforge AND accessories."
  
  If you have to resort to all of that JUST to compete with bash, then it's pretty clear who the winner is.
• ironwoman wrote on 2015-05-17 17:50

  Quote from gundamweed;1275325:

  You bring up some valid points, such as use of that cooking pot. Sure, if we're going to compare two r1 reforged weapons being dual wield, why not compare a r1 cooking pot with a r1 lance?
  
  Still, to continue in the face of all the evidence against your argument from now several credible people, I'm starting to suspect you just enjoy being contrarian. Your argument is basically "smash will win if the planets align and you buy limited supply enchants (which can cost as much as one CRK sword), rely on combo cards, and have to take in external factors, and hope you get BOTH a high ele and high smash reforge AND accessories."
  
  If you have to resort to all of that JUST to compete with bash, then it's pretty clear who the winner is.

  
  
  I can repeat the fact that bash will win out in normal circumstances indefinitely.
  
  All I'm saying is with the current available buffs (and ones that are actually plausible), Smash will win out. Bash is still the far more efficient skill.
• gundamweed wrote on 2015-05-17 17:55

  Quote from ironwoman;1275327:

  I can repeat the fact that bash will win out in normal circumstances indefinitely.
  
  All I'm saying is with the current available buffs (and ones that are actually plausible), Smash will win out. Bash is still the far more efficient skill.

  
  
  Gee, that practically goes against what you said in the first place. It seems giant smash with smash accessories alone just isn't enough, right? No, instead we have to bring in all these other factors. Its as if someone really didn't work out the math and back peddled and moved the goal post.
• Kelvas wrote on 2015-05-17 19:07
  This debate is making bash sound pretty awesome. Unfortunately, magic renovation is around the corner and I don't have APs or rebirthing opportunities to waste.
  
  Also, I don't think it's worth debating about how overpowered everything is at this point. Mabi has already become a game for pretty numbers long before this anyways.
  
  

  Quote from Oberynn;1275311:

  Also, let's remember that now we can just brionac FH anything we don't like without losing any dura.
  

  
  
  I can't believe I completely forgot about that. HERE I COME FLETA. SWEET SWEET REVENGE.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-05-17 20:31
  Bash spam destroys a single Alby Adv Hardmode room in matters of seconds; Smash spam would take several fucking minutes in the same condition. Even as "undergeared" as I am, I'd probably destroy Ghasts with Bash with very minimal effort as opposed to Smash spam.
  
  ... Why do people think Counterattack is still useful? It's very weak and has a lot less priority than Defense.